Comments on: Is Tenure Right in 2009?

By: Len Penzo

Len Penzo — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 23:02:55 +0000

I can see the argument in favor of tenure at the university level, although that seems to have its own problems – like artificially limiting open positions for new professors with fresh ideas.

But, IMO, tenure and seniority are big reasons the public school system is completely messed up. Rewards/employment there must be based on merit.

Isn’t it just a bit ironic that the very teachers that hand out student grades based upon merit are themselves graded on a system that does nothing of the sort? Of course, there is a reason why that is so – but instead of coming out and directly saying it, I’ll leave that as an exercise for the student. ;-)

My $0.02 (after taxes)

Len
Len Penzo dot Com – “Common cents approaches to financial freedom.”
Len Penzo´s last blog ..Drive-By Movie Review: Crossing Over

By: What’s Sizzling? – August 28th Edition

What’s Sizzling? – August 28th Edition — Fri, 28 Aug 2009 11:54:58 +0000

[...] Is tenure right in 2009?, asks My Life ROI. Swing by and see what you think. [...]

By: a

Wed, 26 Aug 2009 19:01:25 +0000

It’s at the college level, but check out Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering. They’re doing pretty much what you propose with their professors – five year contracts that get renewed based on performance. http://www.olin.edu

By: HerLifeROI

HerLifeROI — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 00:26:58 +0000

Hi Everyone – Thanks so much for all the comments! They are really interesting to read.

Lots of you talked about tenure for University professors. My post was mainly about tenure in K-12 public schools, because I think there are differences bewtween the two. One difference is that its more commonplace in college classrooms to cover controversial topics becaus of level of maturity, as well as the fact that students are in college by their own choice.

Second, in universities tenure protects professors from publishing controversial research. This protection is essential because in some ways, that is the point of research! It should be knowledge that is at least new, and at best ground-breaking! Therefore, I completely agree that professors need the freedom to publish results without fear of termination.

And last, I completely agree with Money Energy’s comment about a lack of benefits and insultingly low pay for non-tenured professors.

So while the benefits of tenure are more valuable in a university setting than in a k-12 setting, the drawbacks are unfortunately the same. David’s story reminded me of my own version of that professor who would ramble on about his days in ‘Nam (I began to doubt that he had ever even been to Vietnam).

All in all I agree with a lot of the things mentioned, and I think that Jeremey brought up a very interesting point too.

It just always seemed odd to me that teaching and a handfull of other professions had tenure, while others did not. People in other professions often take risks the same way teachers do (think stockbrokers, journalists, etc) and face the same challenges with frustrating superiors, but never recieve a job-for-life.
HerLifeROI´s last blog ..Is Tenure Right in 2009?

By: Mneiae

Mneiae — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 23:27:02 +0000

Having tenure is a double edged sword. On one hand, it does give some teachers job security and the ability to branch out. On the other, bad teachers will be paid the same rate as good teachers and principals can’t fire them. That’s why I fully support those 5 year contracts. The teachers have some job security, but the principal still has room to exercise some judgment.

By: David Leonhardt

David Leonhardt — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 23:24:46 +0000

Of course tenure is not right. It never was. I recall in my university days sitting through a course on “municipal politics”. There was not a class that the professor did not mention a particular strip club he liked to frequent. Most of the rest of the mubo jumbo he uttered was incoherent. But they had to let him teach something, because he had tenure.
David Leonhardt´s last blog ..Want a link on a throw-away domain?

By: The Weakonomist

The Weakonomist — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 18:18:13 +0000

My dad is a tenured professor and so during this recession it probably feels good to not worry about job security. The problem with not giving tenure to teachers is one of the reasons teachers are motivated is job security. They aren’t paid much but they can sleep easy knowing they’ll still get paid. I’m not arguing for tenure but I can only speak from what I know… my dad, and my mom who is near retirement after a career in public education.
The Weakonomist´s last blog ..Mutually Exclusive: The Friends With Benefits Paradox

By: MoneyEnergy

MoneyEnergy — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 18:11:19 +0000

And for what it’s worth (speaking here at the university level again), until academics *do* receive tenure, they have very little job protections if any – in fact the trend has been towards more part-time contract help – no benefits – really insulting pay for each course taught – and this really destroys quality and possibility of research – research that funds new ideas, better teaching and all kinds of advancements.

So the whole “everyone working harder for less and less” applies in academia too.
MoneyEnergy´s last blog ..Natural Gas Industry Update and Price Forecasts

By: Jeremy

Jeremy — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:41:30 +0000

One other aspect of tenure is that it guarantees teachers on the top end of the salary scale continued employment when there is (almost) a guarantee that if they were let they could not find employment elsewhere because the union would mandate they be hired at the top level of the salary scale.

That may be difficult to understand, maybe a situation would help.

1. Teacher A is teaching in XYZ school district for 20 years.
2. New administrator has a history with Teacher A and fires them for a reason that if there were tenure would not be allowed.
3. Teacher A applies to school ABC to teach.
4. Teacher A is the best candidate for the position at school ABC.
5. School ABC can hire Teacher A but contractually has to hire him at the step he has earned by teaching for 20 years. In this case, Teacher A would be employed making $85,000/year plus benefits. (This will only go up until Teacher A retires).
6. The budget has already passed and the Superintendent knows he cannot afford that increase in salary. In fact, he budgeted counting on the fact that they would be hiring a brand new teacher for the position.
7. School ABC hires a different teacher who is a first year teacher.
8. Teacher A is unemployable as a teacher.

Education is one area where experience is actually not helpful when looking for a new position because of the salary factor. A starting teacher has a limited amount of time in which to find a position in a different school. Once moving up the step ladder, they are locked into a school for their career.

By: MoneyEnergy

MoneyEnergy — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 15:10:55 +0000

Nicely written post! I agree with Ray above, university professors benefit from tenure and damnit, after 10 f* years and the grad schooling they put up with I’m inclined to say they earn it (well, of course they earn it – it’s not automatic. You have to go through a lot of hoops and personal sacrifice even to reach the stage where you might be given tenure, you have to apply for it, and a committee reviews 1,001 things about you and your work, etc., one of which is how well the students have thought of you (i.e., often a popularity contest!) over the last 6-10 years). And the standards for getting tenure also go up over the years – lifestyle inflation is everywhere!

And yes, for the quality of research that research professors are meant to do and hope to do, at that stage of the game it’s really symbiotic that they have relative job security.

As you say, it’s possible to get fired from tenure, so to speak – I’ve known a couple profs who have been – and sometimes it doesn’t have to be something as criminal as a harassment case – it can happen over a quibble on how one marks student tests.

I don’t know anything about tenure at public school K-12 levels – that is probably a whole different ballgame.
MoneyEnergy´s last blog ..Natural Gas Industry Update and Price Forecasts